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peoplejudge2much



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 14
State or Province: Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: ATTENTION: Please Read and Respond Reply with quote

I want you ladies to collaborate with me to come up with a fact sheet no longer than two pages so it can be e-mailed, mailed, and distributed throughout college campuses, high schools, court houses, policy-makers, law-makers, advocates, and to people all over the country. Things are not fair to mothers, fathers, and especially children in our legal system. If we can come together and make a good arguement by making them concise and shocking as to bring attention to the main issues we can start making people aware and make changes. I also suggest that we give suggestions on how our family laws/courts can be made better. Just start listing FACTS here or your problem with the laws and we can help each other find solutions (and you're suggestion of how to fix the problem) so things can be fair and truley in the best interests of the children. I'm all for father's being in their chilldren's lives but RESPONSIBLE fathers. IRRESPONSIBLE fathers should be held accountable. We have to come up with a swift and convincing argument to get the wheels of justice turning.

Here are a few suggestions I have.

I could not file for visitation in court unless I had a lawyer. I was told that he would have to file first.
SUGGESTION: Allow mothers to file visitation petitions just like fathers.

My ex took me to court on several occasions.
SUGGESTION: DO NOT allow people to be brought back to court continously over the same issue and if the person is being petty allow for some type of reprimmand.

Child support and visitation/custody are seperate issues.
SUGGESTION: They are NOT!!! It is not seperate for the custodial parent. Why can a man who has never supported his child go to court with a lawyer (he pays money for) and fight for custody? This is not right.

Men are not held accountable for their actions.
SUGGESTION: Make men take mandatory parenting classes, counseling, anger management. If they make mothers hand over their children and go to mediation when they do most of the work then men need to do things too. If men want joint custody, they should be MADE to make ALL VISITS and attend doctor appointment, etc.

Mother's must let the child see the father
SUGGESTION: Father's cannot miss any visits unless they have a good reason or they should be punished as well.

Father's are not paying child support
SUGGESTION: Allow stiffer penalities (need more suggestions)

These are just my ideas. We probably need to start by getting the information out first by telling our stories and collaborating to see the trends and make the info. concise (also combat sterotypes of single mother's, vindictive women {men are vindictive if not more than women} etc.). Then, we need to work on how to make thing better (i.e. suggestions), and if this does not work we must band together a DEMAND our rights! Last but not least, we women must learn to stick together more and not let men, jealousy, etc. destract us. Put yourself in another woman's shoes (new wives/girlfriends). We must teach our young women these new laws. Women just don't know. I did not know a man could just take your child away for no reason at all. Pregnant women need to know this. Also women need to know that just because you get married does not mean this won't happen to you. Quit living by stereotypes and being afraid of judgement and be smart! Sometimes women can be blamed for some of the things that go on due to ignorance or stubbornness (or he won't do that to me). And the truth is that BAD PEOPLE usually ruin it for everyone else. YES, some mothers keep good fathers from the kids but not all mothers and we give birth and have most of the responsibility. YES, there a many good fathers out ther but bad fathers are ruining it for you too!! I emphasize RESPONSIBILITY. Raising a kid is hard and just because a man fights to see his child does not make him a good father. A father is respectful of the mother and has good morals and is a good example and that's what a good mother is. Everybody needs to get it together or we all suffer especially the kids. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!!!

If my daughter's father were more responsible and not so vindictive and hateful my daughter would have it better but I just don't like handing my child over to him and his girlfriend who HATE ME. He wants to bump her on his knee and cooochie coo in her face and give her back to me and I do everything else. I do resent this. He has put me through hell. Why can't he be made to man up and be more responsible. That's the problem. This will stop resentment from women and men will know what it's really like to raise a kid. Just handing a child back and forth is not parenting. If they make women give up thier children, I repeat make men more responsible and that doesn't mean just child support and if they refuse let a REAL MAN do your job until you get it together. Kids are resilient and are very smart. We don't give them enough credit. Kids know who is doing a good job at parenting. They tell women put the past behind us, ok tell him to man up! This has gone too far. Ladies, we are intelligent and we can do this with tact and class. Thank you.
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peoplejudge2much



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 14
State or Province: Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought of a few more:

Some abusers currently get unsupervised visits:
SUGGESTION: Abusers should get supervised visits must attend counseling and told the effects it has on children. If he continues to be abusive his rights should be suspended. I suggest the whole family get counseling.

Men cannot relinquesh rights
SUGGESTION: I think this is a little unfair. It is meant for men to not be able to cop out of child support but if he is unfit and unwilling to be a good parent why bother. Mothers can give up their children at firehouse etc. Men don't have this option. For women who feel that they think men should not do this and want child support; take it from a woman who wishes her child father would because of all the trouble he cause just because he is mad about child support. Try to be open minded. Your child's safety and well-being is well worth it. Men won't really don't want to pay child support don't so why have the headache? And just because the child may not have the father around does not mean the child is doomed. Many good people have come from single parent homes. Children need financial and emotional support, morals, and guidance. Having a child around an abuser is NOT a better option and your child will not hate you. They will respect you for being strong and protecting them. How can adults speak for other people's kids anyway?

I also suggest that women read up on sociopaths, psychopaths, and narcissists. Many of our exes exhibit these characteristics and there are some links on suggestions on how to deal with them. They are a real problem in our society and father's with mental problems need monitored contact. Also google legal abuse syndrome.

http://www.legalabusesyndrome.org/

http://mothersrights.tripod.com/id14.html

http://groups.msn.com/narcissisticpersonalitydisorder/homepage.msnw

Non-custodial mothers this website is for you
http://www.mothers-of-lost-children.com/MOLC_famcourt.htm

http://www.lovefraud.com/




I hope this post in not confusing but we msut start saying something. Just start with what bothers you most about your situation. The silence is keeping us hostage.

Many of these father's rights groups do not fight fair and I suggest that you all read about their plans to have a heads up. Thats the smart way. Then we can combat this obsurdness. And it's good to not totally man bash because we have men on our side too. We need them just like father's rights groups have women. We have husbands and boyfriends who don't like what's happening and other men to. We need them and appreciate them because real men and fathers know that the dead beats make it hard for them. Strategy. I am very serious about helping mothers and if anyone wants to talk to me I'll be happy to.

Ladies please be careful who you date, marry, and have children with. Please heed red flags. It's not a bad thing to be single. Men change and the law and society are pretty unforgiving to women. Even other women are hard on women.
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Still in Love



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 216
State or Province: California

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I am a mother's rights person, I also believe that Father's have rights too.

If you want things to be right with the family courts and in the absolute best interest of the child... it needs to be based on totally equal rights to both mothers and fathers.

Just because a mom carries the baby does not mean that she too doesn't need parenting classes. Just because fathers usually (not always) make more money doesn't mean that support should be based on his income alone.

visitation and support should not be tied together... cause the only person that suffers from a parent not being allowed to see their child cause they are not current on their support is the child not the parent.

If dad loses his job and falls behind in payments he should not lose his time with his child cause of that.

Maybe moms and dads should think before they leave eachother... cause to be honest, if a person has a child with someone either parent should not be able to just up and walk out on the child and the other parent without exhausting all means possible of being able to stay together.

We do not have a perfect system... and I don't think we ever will since the system is run by men and women that are imperfect and every case is different.
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peoplejudge2much



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 14
State or Province: Illinois

PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt in that on the computer, things can get LOST IN TRANSLATION. Never did I say in my post that father's should not have rights (and this is a site for mothers anyway). And about mothers and fathers having total equal rights is kinda funny to me. It is not women's fault that we can bear children so with that said until men can do it things aren't exactly equal, feel me? Spin it how you wish. And I did not say that all mother's are good. Didn't you read where I said BAD PEOPLE ruin it for GOOD PEOPLE.

If cases must go to "family court" I think all parties need counseling and depending on the circumstances of the case the parents may need parenting classes. How can you make parents get along if after the dimise of the relationship if they broke up beause they couldn't get along (more than likely) while they were together without some kind of support?

If you didn't know (do your research hon), SOME father's rights groups are malicious and quite unfriendly and doing more harm than good too. And I said that things should be FAIR and I emphasized RESPONSIBILITY OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

As far a child support. That is a complicated issue in terms of how they calculate payments but any custodial parent I know would give their last for the kids so why is money such a big issue for the non-custodial parent? Some things the custodial parent does you cannot put a price on either sweetie.

And you say that child support should not be tied to visitation/custody based on a MYTH that you think mothers keep fathers away because the fathers don't pay support. I know toooooo many mothers want the father to at least see that kids and they get any support fro the fathers. I was saying in terms of the father's rights movement where men don't pay child support and sues for custody to avoid it and pay lawyers to do this but NEVER PAID SUPPORT. Men can be vindictive too. Did you read all kinds of post where mothers are scared to even get support because they don't want abusive exes to sue for visitation/custody out of spite???? And mothers lose jobs too and it does not stop them from providing for their kids. So please quit being so biased. Many men just don't want to pay child support period and become abusive and vindictive or were abusive all along. So you think a deadbeat and bad influence or abuser should have rights equal to a great and responsible father? If I were a good dad I would be insulted because its men like that that ruined it for everybody (why do you think the laws were put in place?).

I said RESPONSIBILTY AND FAIRNESS. A man merely seeing his child is not a good FATHER either! Why is it that the mother must let the father see that child at his convenience and he can walk in and out of that childs life without a thought just because that's the father? Isn't that harmful too? Some mother's do this too and society really frowns upon them. It's about BAD IRRESPONSIBLE parents but my focus is on bad fathers because the fatherhood movement are making is seem like just any piece of crap dad should have total control of the kids like they are property when they hardly do anything for the kids at all (SOME)! And hell, what about the fathers keeping mothers from their children???

How would you feel as a child being made to visit an abuser who beat up your mother in front of you and now wants custody of you? Or living out of a suitcase because of some people who don't even know you are making you do it? People should stay together but that is not how the world is and we have to deal with the issues are they ARE.

Your reply is very biased and based on typical sterotypes. There are several sides. You even say yourself that each case is unique so how can you make blanketed statements like all fathers this and all mothers do that and just because this? Yes, each case is unique and should be taken as such and our courts are not like that and this is a big issue. I think we all play a role in failing our children but just trying to make everyone getting along and feeling like mothers are to blame and fathers are best thing next to baked bread is going to keep us all suffering. So hopefully, you may re-read my post and get less defensive and smarten up. You picked my post apart and there had to have been something that you agreed with but you picked out certain things to scaubble about instead of giving insight and some REALISTIC SUGGESTIONS. Some things are just corrupt. I think it is a big money issue as well.

To the mothers who UNDERSTAND start posting Smile !!!
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Still in Love



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 216
State or Province: California

PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My reply was not judgmental or was not meant to be and if you took it that way I am sorry.

I believe that while yes mom's do carry the child for the first 9 months, at birth it should be 50/50 in responsibility. I agree that mom's do provide more then a dad does especially on the emotional side of the scale... Usually not always they have a stronger bond and attachment to their child from carrying it in their womb.

I totally agree that alot of the father's rights groups are malicious and vindictive and started and run by men that were scorned by their own children's mother. But alot of good dad's have suffered over the years due to an unfair court system as well as bitter vindictive mothers.

I am a product of a bitter vindictive mother that would not allow my dad to see me since he was behind on support payments. She did this till I was 13 years old... allowing me to believe that my father was deceased. When I found out that she lied to me it put a wedge in our relationship that has never been worked out... it took me the next 10 years to build a decent relationship with my own father. A relationship that I had every right to have growing up.

I don't have to do research dear... I have been dealing with family court for 20 years. I have three older children from my x husband and one toddler. My older children's father pays his child support but will not see his children. I would love for my children to have a relationship with their dad, but I can't force him. And the support he pays is no where near what he should be paying me. For his two children that he has with me under 18 he should be paying just under 1200 a month. He pays me 800 a month. I didn't want him to be bitter with me. The best part is that is what he was paying for 3 children too. When our oldest was under 18 he should have been paying me 1350 a month in support, but was paying me 800 for the three of them. our son turned 18 and he took me to court to get the support lowered... and the just was going to raise the support and he got all pissed off when the judge informed him that he had been paying about 500 under what he should have been paying me and that for two children he needed to pay me 400 more a month then he was.

I was nice enough to tell the judge to just leave it as it is and that I didn't need anymore. he still is pissed off at me for that and tells people I am stealing his money.

It isn't a myth that mothers keep fathers from their children. the problem is that they did and in alot of cases still do. Which is what started all these father's rights groups to begin with. Also factor in that decades ago when divorce became more and more popular the family court system automatically sided with the mother because it was unheard of that a father could adequately raise a child on their own.

there is no way that the father of any of my children provides for 50% of the cost of raising my kids. If you took all the bills, food, clothes, shoes, haircuts, school supplies, gifts etc... and divided everything down the middle, they pay about 20% of the raising and I provide 80%.

Men can be vindictive as well, I totally agree with you. This site alone has some of the worst horror stories of vindictive men.

I would love to actually work to instill new and totally fair laws in regards to the best interest of the child. I think that you took what I said with it being a website and you can't really see the conversational tone I was using... or the fact that at the time I typed it out I didn't have alot of time to really put everything down so some of it may have come out condecending. I apologise for that.

I would love to see if it were a married couple or even a non married couple that before they could leave... they had to go to couple counselling, and parenting classes together. One of the biggest issues in parents dealing with eachother fairly is due to the fact that they never learned to co-parent together. Even if they can't work out the relationship, they should be able to work out issues together so that they can remain friendly and civil to one another.

Children need stability... and it is my own opinion, at least from my own experiences, that a 50/50 split is never in the best interest of a child. It is too much back and forth on a child. It is my opinion that a 80/20 or a 75/25 split is what is best for a child. Where they have one primary home, and they go to the non custodial parents home every other weekend... or three weekends out of a month. they spend half the summer with the non custodial parent, and split the holidays or if it is possible, the parents share the holidays with the children.

Regardless of how much time a child spends with either parent... I think that it should be the responsibility of each parent to pay 50% of the cost to raise their children.

I think that when a child loses a parent whether from a divorce, or their parents relationship just ends... it should be mandatory for both parents and child to go to counselling so that parents and child can let eachother know what they feel and need. And also so that the child knows that both of their parents love them.

Family court needs to throw out all the issues with both fathers and mothers rights groups... and there needs to be a childs interest group put in place. It should always be about the child. What is sad is that it isn't.

I think that all courts need to bring in mediators. Not all courts have them, and when parents are going for custody, they work with a mediator on the best parenting plan.

Alot of what makes things hard is what doesn't go on in the courtrooms. And that is all the badmouthing that both parents do to the other in front of the kids.

Things just need to change all across the board. Yes mom's carry the child for the nine months of pregnancy... when it serves their purpose, you hear women say... "well, I didn't make this baby by myself"... and later will say, I carried this child for nine months, what have you done?

How would you even get started in fixing these issues?
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peoplejudge2much



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 14
State or Province: Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am glad that you responded and if I came off harsh I apologize as well and every one of us on this board just wants what's best for our kids but let me respond to your post.

You say a lot of good dads suffered over the years as a result of our unfair court system and bitter vindictive mothers. Ok, I agree but let me add something. Unfortuantely, sometimes women get the rap of being bitter and vindictive when they have been abused physically and especially emotionally (because there are no visible scars) when leaving the relationship with the kids. Think the abuser's vindictiveness is well hidden because they are more composed since the were the perpertrators and are more able to manipulate the system. Think of it this way. I understand that your mom kept you away from your father but you don't really know the dynamics of the relationship because you were not present to whole time, you were a child. For example, (please don't be offended, just using this as an example) what if your father was telling your mother how he didn't really want you and was going to get custody just to spite her and verbally abused her all of the time. What if he was behind on purpose with the support to make life hard for her AND YOU? Well, of course she will be upset and he may put a totally different spin on it ya know? My ex did this to me and many other women have experienced this. Maybe you were kept from him for a good reason and maybe not. Maybe your mother did not want to talk down about the father to you and he is able to tell you his story of him being just kept away. Sometimes vindictiveness in women is a manifestation of previous abuse. Not saying it's right but if a man was physically abusive there is some justification. Maybe people just need to be educated more. I am totally not saying your father did this but there is usually more to stories like this so I'm just saying you know be aware and right now I'm sure that's not the issue for you. I'm glad you know your father.

And believe it or not the court system wasn't always so courteous to mothers (until recently lol). The reason why so many good dads get screwed by the court systems were because of ABUSIVE FATHERS. Yep, thats right. There was a time that after men and women divorced that MEN kept the children (they were considered his property and he had control over all financial matters) and any property the couple shared. More often than not these men were abusers and the women wanted to flee. That's when women fought for better laws and wanted their children to protect them and the pendalum swung the other way entirely. But see this was not vindictive mothers who did this, it was in fact, abusive vindictive fathers and bad laws back then.

Now, I see that things are maybe going back to how things were and thats is scary. We totally need balance but a large part of the problem is our patriarchal society. Men feeling like they can control women. As long as I remember women have been submissive and always had less rights than men in all areas of the spectrum so why are we wrong for wanting and protecting our children? Think about this. That's why I mentioned that parenting classes and counseling is needed for families who were involved with abuse. I see things from men being abusive because it is so common more common than women being vindictive solely over the lack of paying child support. You even mentioned how you tried to work with your ex about child support and he's lying telling people you're stealing from him. You absolutely should not have to deal with that. He needs to be more responsible and I commend you for being the bigger person but for many women the men are so sick and twisted it's not that easy. They live in hell for what seems like an enternity over what society says kids need to thrive instead of the individual situation. And you mentioned in the other post that child support is dependent upon the fathers income only but does it really reflect 50% of the costs of raising a child. Far from it and when men don't pay and mothers must still abide by forced court decisions it seems a little sexist to me.

And people should be able to work things out but life is very complicated these days and people don't want or need extra stress so mandatory counseling is a good start (and should not be used against them) so they can work out the issues they have. But for a judge to say just get over everything and focus on the children is ludicrous. I'm also glad you agree that joint custody is not good for children unless that is what the children want but that's what FATHER'S RIGHTS groups are pushing for.

But what you posted is a great start and thats why we need more opinions because people come from diff. backgrounds and see things differently.

1) Parents NEED counseling. Thats great.

2) Shared parenting is not what is best but something should be worked out by the parents.

3) It is best to stay out of court period if you ask me because somebody won't be happy lol.

4) Child support should be enforced just as well as visitation and custody agreements (child support enforcement is a joke now).

5) Judges need to identify the motive behind many of these cases and make sure that either parent is not being vindictive (not tjust the mother, this isn't fair).

See this is a start and we agreed on many main issues. Wink
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peoplejudge2much



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 14
State or Province: Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me also just add that everything I did to compromise with my ex he shut it down. I tried to be reasonable and talk to him but he would not agree to anything and this was largely due to the fact that he did not want to pay child support and he was mad at me for leaving him due to cheating, lying, verbal/emotional abuse, and laziness. He knew I would not leave him because I was pregnant with his child but I knew if I stayed I would end up beaten, he probably would have given me a disease, and we would all be struggling (my child and I mainly because he took from me to buy things that made him happy). He took me to court lying saying I would not let him see our daughter but I did. He just wanted to come over when he felt like it and did not like boundaries and did not want me dating anyone else. He also did things on purpose to me that hurt my feelings and continued to verbally abuse me. He jumped into a relationship with a girl and lied about me to her so she would dislike me. He tried to make me jealous and told me he could not come over and help with our baby because she did not want him to. The unneccessary things I went through with him was endless. He threatened my life and said he would take custody of my baby when I was 7 months pregnant. I did nothing to be deemed unfit. I went to all appointments (he attended 2) and took my vitamins, do not smoke or drink. Yet he was trying to take her away and he was the irresponsible one. He quit working, takes care of his gf kid but won't support mine, gets a new car (he is a big user these days) but won't buy my kid diapers. He sees her every weekend but won't do anything for her harasses me and people look at me funny. I could say much more but I hope I painted a good picutre of how things are unfair to good mothers too. Some Men are vindicitve and lie and are believed over women.
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Cherome



Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 2
State or Province: Texas

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject: I need help and/or advice. Reply with quote

I am dealing with 2 exes, I am still married to my 2 year old's father(separated going on 3 years), and the other is the father of my 7 year old. I need to get a divorce, but since he is temporarily leaving me alone, I've put him on a back burner. The other ex, the 7 year old's father, has taken total advantage of me. First off, we had a court order for supervised visits (1 year) and no over nights (for another year), then he disappeared with his new wife when my daughter was 1 1/2 yrs old, I figured it was for the best, so I didn't try to locate him, and unfortunately I didn't report it to the courts. He resurfaced on my daughter's 5th birthday and expected his visitation to automatically go to the standard possesion order. I managed to talk him out of it, but stupid me, I didn't take him back to court. For the past 2 years he has failed to show up many times without calling, he gets pissed off if he's more than an hour late with no call and we're not there waiting for him, his kids have had lice for the past 4 months causing me to finally have no choice but to shave her head and my own, and he was driving her around with a license that has been expired for over a year without telling me. He's supposed to be taking her for her first overnight stay next weekend, but between the lice and the acting out on her part, I'm concerned her emotional well-being is in jeopardy. What do I do?
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maggie1



Joined: 08 Jun 2009
Posts: 1
State or Province: Kentucky

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject: Fairness in Kentucky Reply with quote

My Ex has taken me to court over everything under the sun, and even though he never prooves anything, the courts always dismiss it, but it looks as if i am the one starting all the arguments in which i am not, is there anyone out there that has been thru this, its been going on for twelve years now, my ex is a manipulative liar, and control freak, he tells me he will make my life a living H---, and so far he has, the courts doesnt believe me when i tell them he takes our child and leaves her with anyone that will keep her or leaves her alone while he works, and tells the court that he is on vacation, how do you prove these things, word against word. my daughter calls me and tells me she wants to come home and to help her but what can i do the police state its a civil matter and cant get involved when he doesnt return her from visitation, and on the other hand if he doesnt show up for a visit, and i pick her up Ie: at school he then calls the police to threaten me to have her at the police dept as certain time to his convenience even though he should have picked her up at 3pm but didnt, anybody got any idea's i am so tired of this battle. and seeing my child suffer due to this idiot.
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Still in Love



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 216
State or Province: California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

find out what age your child gets a say in the state of kentucky... and also get your child a lawyer (guardian ad lietum) to speak on her behalf if she doesn't meet the age and doesn't want to be with her dad... let her tell her lawyer what dad is doing... if the courts will not listen to you... and feel you and him are he said she said... they will likely listen to the child's lawyer that is speaking purely for the best interest of the child.
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kekjnmom



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 3
State or Province: Arizona

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: @ people judge2much Reply with quote

I am pleased to see that I am not alone!! I am a mother of two boys 8 & 9. I have joint custody with my Ex husband. I honestly don't know where to begin! I will start with the simple fact that I want full custody over my boys as quick as posible. This does not mean that I don't want my Ex to have no rights at all, but rather when it may be more convienent for him. Perhaps 1/2 of summers maybe every other Christmas and other vacations they may have from school.
I have plenty of reasons why I feel I can be a better parent to my two boys without being one sided. I would first like to know if there is anyone here that was able to get full custody of there children after joint cusody was agreed upon by both parents initially? I am seeking full custody of my children as I feel some neglegence on the Ex's part.
If anyone has any words of wisdom or has been through this please respond.
Thank you;)
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